[20:11] <JonR> alright, I'll restate the situation...
[20:11] <JonR> Mission:  Sink merchant ships
[20:11] <JonR> Forces:  You are a single diesel sub with a full load of anti-shipping torps
[20:12] <JonR> Situation:  Intel discovered a convoy of 8 or so merchants escorted by
[20:12] <JonR> about five good ASW escorts with helis.  You have been ordered to get into the convoy main body and sink some merchants.
[20:12] <JonR> You have been
[20:12] <JonR> working into position on the convoy, and are tracking what you believe
[20:12] <JonR> to be the merchants and occasionally getting sniffs of an escort or
[20:12] <JonR> two.  The convoy is in the first CZ, and appears to be headed directly
[20:12] <JonR> toward your position at about 15 kt.  Suddenly, you hear a near escort
[20:12] <JonR> increase speed in your general direction for 10 minutes and then go
[20:12] <JonR> silent, and contact with the merchants has gotten weaker.
[20:12] <JonR> Question: How do you proceed?
[20:13] <JonR> The floor is open :)
[20:13] <KellyC> that's easy
[20:13] *** Joins: Gib
[20:13] <jpgr> Heh... no towed array on the near escort....
[20:13] <KellyC> your screwed
[20:13] <jpgr> Hey Gib
[20:13] <Gib> hi
[20:13] <KellyC> hello Gib
[20:13] <Rookster> hi gib
[20:14] <JClark> hiya gib:)
[20:14] <JGG> -first step is to reduce self noise.  Stop Snort if in progress, go to battery (assuming >75% charge), dive to 100 ft.
[20:14] <Gib> hi all
[20:14] <JGG> hi gib
[20:15] <KellyC> I'd start doing minor course changes trying to get a better sniff of the convoy, but most likely the escort may know your in the area, best to take it real slow and easy
[20:16] <JClark> you stay shallow, just deep enough to not be seen by a helo, and don't budge an inch off of course line, unless convoy does...and if convoy does, you give it up for another day
[20:17] <JonR> JC, you're saying that you continue to close on the convoy?
[20:17] <jpgr> The convoy got weak due to it exiting the 1st CZ
[20:17] <JClark> why not, it's why you're there
[20:19] <JClark> if you're going as slow as possible, you reduce chance of Doppler shift
[20:19] <JClark> and if you stay dead on the course line, you reduce chance of bearing change if they get another sniff of you
[20:19] <JGG> ya, on top of the layer is probably the better place to be.  The Escort is @27.5 NM away...so, close at 5 kts along baseline course.
[20:20] *** Joins: Dr__Who
[20:20] <JClark> you dive, hull popping noise
[20:20] *** Q sets mode: +o Dr__Who
[20:20] <JonR> Hi Doc
[20:20] <JClark> hiya doc<G>
[20:20] <jpgr> Hi Doc
[20:20] <KellyC> hi Doc
[20:20] <JGG> hi doc.
[20:20] <jpgr> Thats true JC...
[20:20] <JClark> and TAS is liable to be below the layer
[20:20] <Rookster> hi doc
[20:21] <JGG> JC, but if at a snot, you are making noise like fury, hence diving is not a big deal.
[20:21] <JClark> and, this close, you get better sonar feed from direct path in the surface duct
[20:21] <jpgr> Well, hopefully you wont be running a diesel... otherwise, they already have you :-)
[20:21] *** Q changes topic to 'Discussion Topic - Sub tatics for approaching a convoy'
[20:21] <JGG> Sonar will be dead from 30-15 miles or so... so you have to close 15 miles.
[20:22] <JClark> JGG, when i'm that close to the meat, i want to be a hole in the ocean, and not even give my target the briefest glimmer of an idea i'm there..and best way to do that, is don't move
[20:22] <JClark> me, close? why? target doing fine job of that for me
[20:22] <Dr__Who> Hi everyone
[20:23] <JGG> is the target going to run you over though?  This is something you may or may not know...closing at 2-5 kts might be your best option, as well...you have to keep some way on the sub.
[20:25] <jpgr> I think you need to keep moving just to provide TMA to your sonar people...
[20:26] <JClark> tell you what, Jgg..you keep on turning wheels on a target that you won't know has changed course until its too late, increase your chances of getting heard, and i'll just wait behind you for the ensonified layer to hide me even better
[20:27] <JClark> i'll buy that one jp, but since, at 30 miles, convoy was heading right at me, i wouldnt be doing much turning off course line
[20:27] <JGG> nor would I, unless I had reason to suspect a course change (unlikely to have enough data)
[20:27] <JClark> if it takes a big zig, games over...you'll never get back in position without making enough noise to be heard, or burning your battery up
[20:28] *** Q changes topic to 'Discussion Topic - Sub tatics for approaching a convoy'
[20:28] <JGG> at 3-5 kts, your battery will last as long as the air.
[20:29] <jpgr> Small course changes can firm up a contacts data...
[20:29] <JClark> if convoy is 25 miles from you, and takes a 45 degree zig away, how fast do you have to go, to keep withing firing position of convoy?
[20:30] <JGG> As it stands, you have 0 data on the convoy for at least 1 hr.
[20:30] <JClark> lets be generous and call the launch position 6 miles out
[20:31] <JClark> well, unless you have off-board sensors, or a crystal ball, you just got to go with the best info you have, and keep driving in
[20:31] <JGG> If the convoy goes 45 degrees from you, you have to make the base leg of 25 nm, whist they go 35 nm.  So, if they are at 10 kts, you have to do about 7 kts.
[20:32] <JClark> if convoy is still on course, then its a free lunch...if you get past that escort, that may, or may not have gotten a sniff of you<G>
[20:33] <JClark> and at what bearing from the convoy would the sub be at contact?
[20:33] <JClark> not bow on, for sure
[20:33] <JClark> more like beam on, correct?
[20:33] <JGG> beam on.
[20:33] <jpgr> I think if the escort gets a sniff of you, you are going to find a helo doing ASW on you...
[20:33] <JonR> I would count on it
[20:34] <JClark> maybe...maybe not...its a big ocean, and you're a little sub, with no pump noises to give you away
[20:34] <JonR> However, their contact is probably a bearing-only
[20:34] <JGG> Yep, the bird is going to be hunting for a sub if they get a bit of data.
[20:35] <JClark> the best a helo is going to get, unless sub gets dumb and bends knots, or makes a lot of course changes, is a MAD detect
[20:35] <JGG> Easier if it is a dipping array, then go active, and hunt outwards. (although, have to be careful not to give backscatter to sub)
[20:36] <JGG> If you have 5 escorts, and 8 merchies, you likely would have 2 dipping, 3 bouy birds available.  Divert 1 of each to hunt.
[20:36] <JClark> depends on the contact
[20:36] <JClark> faint contact, could be a biological
[20:37] <JGG> The brits dropped how many torps on biologicals???
[20:37] <jpgr> Head towards the convoy datum, using small course changes, at 2-7 knots... you dont have a towed array so the convoy will be difficult to pinpoint exactly.... 
[20:37] <JClark> and a skimmer picking my diesel up in the first CZ, and me shallow, and doing about 4 knots? please...
[20:37] <jpgr> Close to pointblank range of 2-3 merchants and sink them....
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[20:37] <JGG> Sod greenpeace, the whales can die.
[20:38] <JGG> Say some unlucky sailor dropped a large frypan there JC...
[20:38] <JClark> and run like hell out the backside of the convoy, and forget the noise
[20:38] <JClark> cut unlucky sailors throat, and pray
[20:38] <JonR> How 'bout we advance the situation a little bit...
[20:38] <jpgr> k..
[20:38] <KellyC> ok
[20:38] <JGG> k.
[20:39] <JonR> You're still alive, the convoy is still roughly on course toward you
[20:39] <JonR> you've got an escort between you and the convoy
[20:40] <JonR> lessee, what shall we use for ranges to escort and convoy?
[20:40] <JClark> 5 to escort, 15 to convoy
[20:40] <JClark> close enough to sweat, and close enough to be hungry
[20:41] <JonR> ok, almost close enough to shoot at the escort if you wanted
[20:41] <JGG> both direct path contacts now. 
[20:41] <JGG> evade the escort towards the convoy, circle him at 5 nm if you can.
[20:41] <JClark> location of escort off my bow? ditto convoy?
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[20:42] <jpgr> heh heh
[20:42] <jpgr> WB doc
[20:42] <JGG> Don't shoot the escort unless you have to.
[20:42] <JonR> yeah, convoy is directly behind the escort, coming right at you
[20:42] <jpgr> Same thing I was thinking JC
[20:42] <Dr__Who> never really left, just multi tasking and not typing anything here
[20:42] *** JGG is now known as Fred_the_
[20:43] <jpgr> Then you would have to wait for the escort to pass directly over... unless he has VDS, there should be no problem...
[20:44] <Fred_the_> jpgr, I believe at least one US sub has been found in exercises that way...with the VDS making one _heck_ of a racket when it hit.
[20:44] <JClark> patience...patience...patience....
[20:44] <jpgr> I would be at creep tho, and as deep as possible... the escort will be doing direct path too, and the layer will throw him off...
[20:45] <JClark> and if you're below the layer, you aint gonna hear much from the convoy at another 15 miles
[20:45] <jpgr> I wouldnt doubt it Fred
[20:45] <Fred_the_> I'd manouver so as to give a offset from him.  Not speed, just the 2-3 kts you have on.
[20:46] <Fred_the_> (oh, and pass the msg that if anyone sneezes, I kill them :)
[20:46] <jpgr> sneezes I wouldnt worry about... its the idiot dropping the deckplate...
[20:47] <jpgr> or the toilet seat, or the XO's door, or :-)
[20:47] <Fred_the_> no movement, at all, save if ordered.
[20:49] <Fred_the_> if you are at 2 kts, and the escort is at 10, you would be at less than 1 nm from him at CPA...I'd worry about any noise at all...
[20:49] <Fred_the_> anyway, I have to go to bed here...have fun with this one!
[20:50] <JonR> cya Fred
[20:50] <KellyC> bye Fred
[20:50] *** Fred_the_ is now known as jgg
[20:50] *** Quits: jgg (Quit (Leaving))
[20:50] <JClark> cya james
[20:50] <JClark> at one mile, his own screw noise is going to keep me quiet
[20:50] <KellyC> I think we're agreed on this one, just be quiet and let the escort pass
[20:50] <JonR> ok, same basic situation, except the escort sends a torp down your bearing
[20:51] <KellyC> ack
[20:51] <KellyC> constant bearing rate?
[20:51] <JClark> counter fire down line of bearing, turn, cavitate, calculate impact time, drop noisemakers 20 seconds before that time, turn hard INTO convoy, and pray...really, really, pray
[20:52] <JClark> then get best solution on convoy, fire every thing i got, surface, and surrender
[20:52] <jpgr> LOL JC
[20:52] <JClark> who knows, they might accept
[20:53] <KellyC> but you just wasted a torp at the escort you could have fired at the convoy, with only 8 merchant ships with 5 escorts..those merchants must be quite important
[20:53] <JonR> And the torp could be just a ploy to flush you out...
[20:54] <JClark> "confusion to the enemy"
[20:54] <jpgr> Even if it was a helo that dropped the torp, I would still try to get a couple of kills before I went down....
[20:54] <JClark> and lets face it...if he fired a torp down MY bearing line, hes got a lot more than a sniff
[20:54] <KellyC> that's why I asked about constant bearing rate, if it's coming straight they probably know your there, if not, their just reaching
[20:54] <jpgr> If I evaded, it could be nasty... but I would sink the closest contacts since my cover is blown...
[20:54] <JClark> agree, jp, that close in, they aint gonna stop dropping until they hear hull breaking noises
[20:56] <jpgr> Yep...
[20:56] <JClark> its lousy range, but what the heck
[20:56] <JClark> you might get one of the convoy...
[20:56] <JonR> I agree with counter-firing down the bearing, and trying to move...
[20:57] <KellyC> it's also predictible, which isn't a good thing..do they have you for sure? 
[20:57] <KellyC> ASW torps aren't all the known for long range
[20:57] <jpgr> Right... you can also just stay on present course and hope for the best...
[20:58] <JonR> But I'd also not go real noisy, and keep my nose at the escort.  I'm hoping to evade the first torp and hope that I kill the escort - it will make noise to hide me
[20:58] <JClark> i have to assume, since the escort fired on me, and that torp is coming down my line of bearing, that he KNOWS where i am, or close enough, to start shooting...
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[20:58] <JClark> remember, he gives HIS position away when he fires
[20:58] <jpgr> I agree with JC.... he has a solution...
[20:58] <JonR> he may only have bearing, not range
[20:59] <JClark> an escort only fires a torp under extreme duress
[21:00] <KellyC> ?
[21:00] <JClark> because when he tosses that torp over the side, its a big datum
[21:00] <KellyC> Brits sure didn't have a problem dumping torps in the water
[21:01] <JClark> when? Falklands?
[21:01] <JClark> what were they shooting at? mackerel?
[21:01] <KellyC> probably
[21:02] <JClark> shoot a short ranged, ship launched torp, at a real sub, and you WILL get one shot right back at your snot locker
[21:02] <JClark> call it reflex<G>
[21:03] <jpgr> I agree... in most navies, the OOD/CDO/Captain will wait till a fairly decent solution shows up on the fire control system before firing.... 
[21:03] <KellyC> okay
[21:03] <jpgr> But, what does Harpoon do?....
[21:04] <jpgr> Does the AI fire at any sniff?
[21:04] <JClark> well, the Russians seem to be in love with those ASROCskis....
[21:05] <KellyC> true
[21:06] <JClark> and yes, they pop them off like they have bottomless magazines...
[21:06] <KellyC> personally I would wait until I knew for certain I was going to get hit (ie torps aquired me) and then volley everything I had at the convoy (that's the mission, not the escorts) and then pray
[21:06] <JClark> at least, in Harpoon Classics/97 they do
[21:07] <KellyC> torps use search patters, unless it's a straight bearing shot (at that point your screwed anyways so open fire at convoy) but if it goes into a search pattern I'd ride it out with finger on red button
[21:08] <JClark> my reasoning for taking the snap shot: he might be unlucky, and i might not..and unless convoy CO ordered other escorts over in time, there won't be anyone in position for a while to touch me, unless a helo gets lucky again
[21:10] <JClark> back in a couple...
[21:10] <JClark> give fingers a rest<G>
[21:13] <Gib> gotta run guys
[21:13] <KellyC> bye Gib
[21:13] <Dr__Who> cya
[21:13] <JonR> cya Gib
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[21:13] <jpgr> The other escorts would probably be doing 20+ knots
[21:13] <jpgr> Cya Gib
[21:14] <Gib> l8ter
[21:14] *** Quits: Gib (Quit (Leaving))
[21:14] <jpgr> So I dont think there would be too much problem figuring out their locations...
[21:15] <KellyC> I just don't see reacting the 'normal way', maybe I'm wrong but it never hurts to try something different, if the torp misses the ASW crews will be scratching their heads
[21:16] <jpgr> I dont think the AI scratches their heads. .I think he keeps the preasure on till the issue is resolved
[21:17] <KellyC> I've seen h2 torps circle around my subs before, but your right, he does keep coming
[21:18] <KellyC> is the AI cheating?
[21:18] <KellyC> or does he have a good contact, and if so, where's the active bouys/dipping sonars?
[21:19] <JClark> back...
[21:20] <JonR> my experience is, if I see torps from the escort, I gotta kill him quick.  If I'm only dealing with helis, I still have a chance.
[21:21] <jpgr> I think the AI is fair but he doesnt have human indecision... I might think twice about dropping my last torpedo, but the AI doesnt, he just want to achieve a kill...
[21:22] <KellyC> hmm maybe a test scenario with bios?
[21:22] <JClark> how about we assume the sub has gotten past the escort, and the convoy is fine on the bow..assume two columns, four to a column, columns 5 miles apart, a mile between each ship
[21:23] <jpgr> Kill them all!! Mwahhaaahhhaaah...
[21:23] <jpgr> Errr... sorry.. :-)
[21:23] <KellyC> depends upon fire control, you'll want to keep control of the fish so as to achieve hits
[21:23] <JClark> lets also assume you want to live to brag about it<G>
[21:25] <JonR> I'd want to get right in the midst of them before shooting - that way I'm closer to the back door and hopefully any helis coming after me will be distracted by exploding ships
[21:25] <JClark> you can believe, that from the moment you fire the first fish, you have at best, 5 minutes before you have helos overhead
[21:25] <jpgr> Make one attack on the convoy, attacking as many as possible, the lay on a course to evade....
[21:28] <JClark> how many tubes does your average Kilo have? 6?
[21:28] *** Q changes topic to 'Discussion Topic - Sub tatics for approaching a convoy'
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[21:28] <KellyC> 8 isn't it?
[21:28] <jpgr> Err... I think so..
[21:29] <JClark> then you got one per...but is one per enough?
[21:29] <JClark> do you save one for an escort?
[21:29] <KellyC> nope JC's right..there's 6
[21:29] <JClark> which way do you exit?
[21:30] <jpgr> My handy-dandy Janes Recog book says 6 53CM torp tubes...
[21:30] <JonR> I go through one of the lines near one of my hits
[21:31] <KellyC> same here, too much noise, but also reloading...maybe fire some more at the fleeing merchants (if any's left)..15 knots don't mean much at that range
[21:31] <JClark> JC cheated..he opened up Scenario Editor and went to platform display<G>
[21:32] <KellyC> ?
[21:34] <JClark> i'd fire at the first two to port...one per...go full, turn to starboard, put two in first, two in second..go right under them, stop, turn, go slow, around 5 knots, and head back to the first two, and hide right under them, in the middle of all that noise...take a while to clear the water out
[21:35] <JClark> re-load, and when i thought i had the chance, finish the job
[21:35] <KellyC> calling it a night, take care folks
[21:36] <JClark> then i'd know uncle Segei would give my mother the big red star...posthumously, of course<G>
[21:36] <Rookster> me too, eyes closing, cya'll later
[21:36] <JClark> k, kelly, take care..
[21:36] <JonR> cya kelly, Rooks
[21:36] <JClark> you too, rook
[21:36] *** Quits: KellyC (Quit (Leaving))
[21:36] *** Parts: Rookster
[21:38] <jpgr> Hmmm, well I guess low and slow is the way to go....
[21:38] <Dr__Who> brb
[21:38] <jpgr> heh heh
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[21:38] <JClark> one thing you can count on...
[21:38] <JClark> everything with a sonar is going to go active, like right now
[21:39] <JClark> even fathometers<G>
[21:39] <jpgr> Somebody ping doc...
[21:39] <JClark> best place to be, is under wounded merchie, who's making about 5 knots at best, and making gobs of noise
[21:40] <JClark> docs at about 5 seconds
[21:40] <jpgr> Thats true JC.... unless you are trying to be covert... passive will always be better than active...
[21:40] <JClark> i humbly submit, shooting torpedos into merchies, is hardly covert
[21:41] <jpgr> heh heh, I agree :-)
[21:41] <JClark> with escorts heating up water with sonar energy, anything that is not at a location occupied by a merchant, is a sub
[21:42] <jpgr> I believe that a unit with a good towed array, will not go active....
[21:43] <jpgr> Its much more interesting to hear a sub go fast responding to active...
[21:43] <JClark> jp, you got any idea how screwed the water is going to be, from all the underwater explosions?
[21:43] <jpgr> Errrr.... a little...
[21:43] <JClark> and fa sure, even if they do find me hiding under the Bob Hope, you think someone is going to shoot at me?<G>
[21:45] <jpgr> But an active sonar system is going to have a hard time finding a sub in noisy water as a passive sonar system...
[21:45] <JClark> yah...and a lot harder hiding under a target, rather than heading away from datum
[21:45] <jpgr> The Harpoon AI doesnt have any problem shooting at a target in the general vicinity of an allied target...
[21:46] <JClark> i use this one all the time..i usually dont stay under the target, though, just keep heading out and praying all the while
[21:46] <JClark> sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt
[21:47] <jpgr> Well, I gotta get out of here...
[21:47] <jpgr> Ill cyall later...
[21:47] <JClark> k, jp, take care...
[21:47] <Dr__Who> cya
[21:47] <JonR> cya jp
[21:47] <JClark> good having ya back<G>
[21:47] <jpgr> Good Hunting
[21:47] *** Parts: jpgr
